Soleil: [00:00:00] In today's episode, I got to sit down with Travis Bockenstedt, who's the chief experience officer at Pinnacle Advanced Primary Care. 

Travis Bockenstedt: We are all used to calling our primary care office. They say we'll get you in in two months, and then you get seven minutes with your doctor and you're just shoved out the door.

Travis Bockenstedt: That was not working for me. 

Soleil: After a staggering 26, 000 bill from a single ER visit, Travis became passionate about transforming healthcare. 

Travis Bockenstedt: my blood work was about 6, 000 of that bill.

Travis Bockenstedt: I could have done the same exact blood work if I contracted directly and asked for a cash pay price for under 100. 

Soleil: Travis explains how direct primary care puts patients first, by removing insurance from primary care and making healthcare more affordable and personal. You'll hear about real success stories, the benefits of longer appointments and lower costs, and the legislative push to empower consumers.

Travis Bockenstedt: You're paying executives and CEOs [00:01:00] of companies multi million dollar packages, right? While their members are going broke.

Soleil: Hi there and welcome to another episode of Sweat Strategy and Success. I'm your host Soleil Rain and I have a deep desire to learn about the experiences of entrepreneurs and professionals in the health and wellness industry. As a marketer in the space for the last few years, I wanted to be able to learn about what these professionals were experiencing, the challenges they were having, and how they would solve them.

Soleil: The ultimate goal of this podcast is to help you become the best version of yourself personally and professionally.

Soleil: I won't keep you any longer. Let's get started.

Soleil: $26,000. That's the price of an emergency room trip that you paid for an anxiety attack. Can you tell me more about how this personal experience.

Soleil: Motivated you to become a change agent in the healthcare industry and [00:02:00] how it's inspired your work at pinnacle. 

Travis Bockenstedt: Of course, I think all of us in business, entrepreneurship, when we're doing things in life, we all have that tipping point. We have that moment that motivates us to action. And for me, that was about seven ish years ago now, um, Literally the day after my 30th birthday, um, I was in the emergency room for a massive anxiety attack and for people who've never had one before, it, it literally feels like a heart attack.

Travis Bockenstedt: It, it's very serious. Um, you don't know what to do. So I went to the ER and, um. About a nine hour ER visit cost me that 26 grand. And what was the tipping point was I was very angry because no one could tell me why all of these things added up to 26, 000. Now, this was before we had the surprise medical bill act before some legislation has been put in place.

Travis Bockenstedt: So [00:03:00] price gouging was still very, very much a thing. And I sat down and said, what, what is the problem here? There were two of them. 

Travis Bockenstedt: One, I was trying to work on my mental and physical health, but I had no one as an advocate. We are all used to calling our primary care office. They say we'll get you in in two months, and then you get seven minutes with your doctor and you're just shoved out the door.

Travis Bockenstedt: That was not working for me. The other thing was I felt like I had no control over the cost of my care. So I googled doctors who do not accept insurance and that is how I discovered the direct primary care movement and I've been working in the movement ever since. 

Soleil: You know, I have to be honest with you. I have actually had a very similar experience. And went to the emergency room. I actually, I Ubered myself to the emergency room because I thought I was dying because I was having an anxiety attack. And so I returned myself to the [00:04:00] emergency room and told them what was happening, you know? They ultimately didn't have enough beds for me. 

Soleil: So they sat me down in this little chair outside of the emergency room. They ended up taking a bunch of my vitals. They took my blood, they did an EKG. And I remember feeling so scared and I was by myself in this emergency room at two o'clock in the morning. And they did this whole process for me. And while I was very grateful for it, they sent me out the door like two hours later telling me that I was just low on some zinc. About two weeks later, I got about an $18,000 bill. And I remember seeing that and being like, oh my gosh, And the thing wasn't that I wasn't grateful that they were doing these things. 

Soleil: It was that the care that I received costs me so much money. And I'm sure you hear stories about people experiencing similar things like this all the time. [00:05:00] And that leads me into my next question, which is. At pinnacle advanced primary care.

Soleil: What are you really trying to achieve in improving the system for both people like me and people like you. 

Travis Bockenstedt: So I think we're trying to do a few things. First and foremost, I think we've lost faith in our primary care and family medical system, and that's not a blame to be put on our primary care providers, our PAs and NPs. That's really a result of the system that makes them work within what we call fee for service.

Travis Bockenstedt: So fee for service It's basically 69, 000 different codes that can be used and basically your, uh, electronic medical record, people think it's, you know, for them to store my medical information, which it is, but at the end of the day, it's really a billion, uh, a billing document. So if you have an issue with your elbow, your knee, a cough, anything, there is a code associated to all of that.

Travis Bockenstedt: So imagine your primary [00:06:00] care physician sitting down in seven minutes. They're trying to listen to the, the ailment that you have or the concern, but in the back of their mind, it's how can I build for this? How do I document it? I have to get all of this right so we can get money to run our practice. So the fee for service environment, um, has really created a lot of problems in healthcare.

Travis Bockenstedt: And the other issue that it has created is that the more I do to my patient, the more money I can get paid. So it incentivizes over utilization of the healthcare system. 

Travis Bockenstedt: So for instance, when we were having our anxiety attack, we needed blood work ran, right? That same blood work, I looked after I got into direct primary care, my blood work was about 6, 000 of that bill.

Travis Bockenstedt: I could have done the same exact blood work if I contracted directly and asked for a cash pay price for under 100. 

Travis Bockenstedt: [00:07:00] So how do we get a markup from 100 to 6, 000? That's because insurance companies do a markup and give you a fake discount. Basically. Right. So in order to restore primary care and family medicine, we need to remove it out of insurance altogether.

Travis Bockenstedt: The way I would think about primary care is think about your car. You have car insurance that if a major accident happens that you have funds available to pay for medical expenses to get your car fixed, things like that, right? You would never use Your car insurance to do an oil change or to change your tires or to do general maintenance on your engine, right?

Travis Bockenstedt: That is something you would call around town to a few shops and say hey who's got the best price you will shop around Because it's the free market So you as a consumer can get quotes that are actually the quote to get your car fixed Um, and we know good preventive maintenance on a car [00:08:00] prevents larger issues.

Travis Bockenstedt: So apply everything I just said to primary care. So we're going to create a cash pay system called the direct primary care movement, where your monies go directly to your physician, and there's no middleman.   

Travis Bockenstedt: By doing so, by not accepting insurance at our practice, we save 40 percent of our revenue. So imagine running a business, And spending 40 percent of your revenue just to get paid.

Travis Bockenstedt: It's kind of insanity, right? So practices have to have 20 to 30 patients a day per doctor. To churn through, to build, to make money. We get rid of all of that and say, Hey, let's apply a Netflix model, or a YouTube TV, or your food box, that subscription model. Do primary care, get rid of insurance. So now, our physicians spend about 40 minutes per patient.

Travis Bockenstedt: They see 6 to 10 patients a day. They do no [00:09:00] medical billing or coding at all because you're no longer a billing document. You're just a member of the practice, and by changing all of those incentives, we can start to change the healthcare system. But first, it starts with that price transparency. When you walk in a pinnacle and you need blood work done, 19.

Travis Bockenstedt: 50. You need stitches, 15, right? Complete price transparency. So that's really what we're trying to accomplish. We want to make doctors lives better, patients lives better, and get back to preventive medicine so we don't have a sick care system. Mm hmm. 

Soleil: I think from my own personal experience, as I was mentioning after this anxiety that I had and a couple other medical bills that I was receiving from a few other different medical services that I had received. And just being part of the insurance system in general. It felt like my insurance was never actually really helping me. 

Soleil: Right. It was either that I was paying these. [00:10:00] Absurd prices for bills while also paying my insurance company while also paying my deductible. And. It felt like all of this money I could have just paid for the bill anyway. And so what I ended up doing was I reeled back on my insurance use actually. I had a point in my life where I was doing freelance marketing and I decided, you know what, I'm, I'm not going to do. I'm not even going to have insurance, I'm going to see. Where it gets mean. But it felt scary almost. Why do you 

Soleil: think as Americans we're scared. to not have medical insurance? Terrance.

Travis Bockenstedt: Yeah. So kind of a few things to think about when we think about the direct primary care model, what it does and it doesn't do. So if you were to go skiing and, and shatter your leg, your primary care physician can't do surgery. That's out, out of the scope of their practice, right? So you would probably have an ambulance visit and er visit, [00:11:00] and then surgery, and then physical therapy.

Travis Bockenstedt: Um, there are parts of that cost that you can control, and there are parts that you have no control over, right? You cannot choose. Most of the time, what ambulance is going to pick you up, depending on the acuity of your, uh, ER or life threatening situation, you don't have the ability to pick what hospital you want to go to.

Travis Bockenstedt: So our members and everybody should still have something for financial protection, um, because big health systems like we had just talked about can price gouge consumers. 

Travis Bockenstedt: Now, something to think about, which a lot of people don't know, there are alternatives to traditional major medical. I have not given a single dime to a traditional insurance company for, well, since I've worked in direct primary care, so six years.

Travis Bockenstedt: I have not taken a blue cross plan. I paid the penalty before the Trump administration did away with that. That was like six to 700 per year [00:12:00] penalizing me because I would not use a broken healthcare system. Thank God that penalty is gone, right? So now you have the choice. I would never want anybody to be in a situation where they do not have a backup plan.

Travis Bockenstedt: Now if you are in a financial position, because I was just talking to my husband about this the other day, I said in a, in a, in an ideal world. We would have a savings account with a million dollars in it. I would never buy car insurance again, I would never buy health insurance, none of it. Because having a million in an account pretty much cover any massive thing that would happen, right?

Travis Bockenstedt: But I don't have that. A great alternative are called health shares. to traditional major medical health shares operate similar to direct primary care. Um, and in essence, kind of how an insurance company would operate, right? We all put money into a pot. And if, if something happens to you, those monies go to pay for your, your, [00:13:00] um, you know, whatever happened to you, those major expenses.

Travis Bockenstedt: A health share is a little bit different because we're all putting our money into that pot, but there's no funny games. There's no markups, discounts, there's no networks. They transparently say what they will cover and what they won't cover. Unlike traditional insurance where you're paying out the wazoo for your premium every month, plus your co pays, plus meeting your deductible, and then maybe having co insurance after that.

Travis Bockenstedt: You could be 20, 000 in the hole before you even get to see the benefits out of insurance. So yes, it is scary. That is one of the biggest objections I probably get and why we're not seeing any change because healthcare is deeply personable. 

Travis Bockenstedt: And when you think of even both sides, Republicans and Democrats, if you looked at the late, you know, watched anything with the debates and stuff, nobody wants to touch it.

Travis Bockenstedt: Nobody wants to touch health care, right, but [00:14:00] it's going to take consumers like me and you saying, hey, not going to participate in the system anymore.

Travis Bockenstedt: I'm going to find another way to pay for my major medical expenses, get a direct primary care membership. I'm going to take an active role in my health care and actually shop around.

Travis Bockenstedt: Then I think it's a really good fit for people to jump into an alternative health care plan. But if you have no intention of taking an active role in your health care, you have no intention to shop around, doing something alternative is not a good fit for you. You should probably just stick with the regular system.

Soleil: I want to go into that a little bit deeper with you. 

Soleil: Can you inform us? Of the people who should think about doing traditional healthcare.

Soleil: AKA getting an insurance plan and the people who maybe should look at considering a traditional or alternative to the traditional model. 

Travis Bockenstedt: Yeah, really good question. So, as I was saying before, there are things we can [00:15:00] control in cash pay and things we absolutely cannot. If you are on a name brand medication with no generic equivalent, some people are on drugs that are costing them a thousand, 3, 000 a month. And if they didn't have insurance, there'd be no way to pay for that.

Travis Bockenstedt: Maybe you are in the middle of a chronic illness, cancer treatment, um, something big going on. I, I would never disrupt what you currently have going in place because it could create some problems. So what we do at Pinnacle and what any good direct primary care practice would do is we sit down, do an interview with you in a way, find out what your healthcare concerns are, Do some investigation on your out of pocket expenses.

Travis Bockenstedt: I had a woman once paying 500 a month for a brand name medication she could get for generic for 50 a month, but the hospital system she went to made more money prescribing her a brand name than the generic. 

Travis Bockenstedt: That was just a simple conversation to say, [00:16:00] Hey, do you know this is generically available? And she's like, no, I had no idea.

Travis Bockenstedt: So, you know, it was a logical move for this particular person because we could lower that cost. So, you know, I would just be very cautious if you're going through something big. If you are someone who's relatively healthy, maybe you have something you're managing, like high blood pressure or things like that, right?

Travis Bockenstedt: That can be done easily within a primary care practice. But if you are relatively healthy and a low utilizer of the system, You are a perfect candidate right away out the door to start exploring some alternative options. I wish I didn't have to use the word alternative because it makes it seem like it's scary or less of or not as good.

Travis Bockenstedt: Um, but, but I would say that would be a good starting point. If you are someone at age 26 and you're about to get bumped off your parents health care plan and you're healthy, We think we're invincible in our [00:17:00] 20s. I'm 37. So I would tell you the closer you get to 40 things start to creak a little bit.

Travis Bockenstedt: You're not going to jump over a fence as fast. You start to think about your health a lot more. And if I could get people in their 20s to start thinking like this, think of how much money they could save in their lifetime. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's a long answer to the question, but I think you need to do a personal inventory and say, What are my costs?

Travis Bockenstedt: What do I need? And that can sort of help dictate things as this cash pay movement grows as the free market health care grows. It'll be a lot easier for people no matter what your pre existing conditions are to jump into this model. But I would just caution people who are in the middle of something big right now.

Travis Bockenstedt: Don't change your major medical. However, You can add direct primary care on to anything. We operate independently. So I would say someone who has a massive chronic illness, you should have direct [00:18:00] primary care so we can coordinate your care. We can start asking big questions. We can say, why is your health insurance charging you this much?

Travis Bockenstedt: We can get it for this price.

Soleil: Yeah, well, there's, there's just so much wrapped into there, right? Because you have just general rhetoric of traditional healthcare versus. Alternative healthcare, which is one thing. And then you also have the fear of leaving insurances. Which is fair because of the prices. It has cost us to go. To the ER, or go get help after a major accident or while you were experiencing some sort of treatment.

Soleil: But despite all of that, you're still going to need. Some sort of service that will help you pay for medical expenses. And so in that regard, It sounds like the best thing to do would be to shop around. And ask questions because I'm sure even at pinnacle advanced primary care. You can probably [00:19:00] call in and say, Is this something that you can help me with? 

Soleil: Or what do you think about this thing that I'm experiencing and would direct primary care be a good option for it? I'm sure. There's so many questions that you could just call in and ask, instead of saying silent and not doing your research.

Travis Bockenstedt: Right. Absolutely. And, um, you know, 

Travis Bockenstedt: I think it just really goes down to if you have no advocate, you're alone in this very complicated system and primary care, when done best, when a provider can have 40 minutes with you, we, we, we call it practicing at the top of their license. Yeah. Meaning, there are more things they can do in a direct primary care setting because they're not rushed.

Travis Bockenstedt: And we tell our members, always start with pinnacle, unless it is your life, your limb, or your eyesight. Meaning, you think you're having a heart attack, you, you have stroke symptoms, you got a chemical in your [00:20:00] eyeball, things like that, you need to call 911 and go to the ER. If it's not one of those things, you always start with Pinnacle so we can help you navigate.

Travis Bockenstedt: And the cool thing with direct primary care practice is we let our members contact us after hours and on weekends. So you can get a consultation to say, Hey, that rash, it's fine. Where's the nearest pharmacy? I'll send you a cream for it. Right. So you don't have to go to the urgent care. So, you know, when primary care is done, right.

Travis Bockenstedt: Um, you should always start with your primary care physician, but most people can't. Because I can't access them.

Soleil: During your work at pinnacle. Can you share a story that illustrates how this version of primary care is changing? People's. Lives. 

Travis Bockenstedt: Absolutely. So a pinnacle. So, uh, primary care practices, you kind of have two types. You have a solopreneur mom and pop primary care, which usually one provider, one medical assistant, they get their 700 to 1000 patients and they're good. Awesome way to run a practice. Then [00:21:00] there's practices like pinnacle who said, Hey, we believe that we can make the most change.

Travis Bockenstedt: If we work with businesses to implement this health care model to get it to their employees, um, because, and I'm going to rob this from one of our health care disruptors, um, and, uh, I'm trying to remember which person, so I apologize whose line I'm stealing. But they say that employers are the sleeping giant of health care reform.

Travis Bockenstedt: Right. They make the biggest choices to have a lot of people covered. So, we work with businesses from one employee all the way up to a hundred plus employees. So, our accounts range. However, I love working with small employers with like 25 or less employees because they are the most grateful to have a health care benefit for their employees.

Travis Bockenstedt: We worked with a small non profit in Colorado Springs where traditional health care benefits were completely out of reach and she found that her employees were having [00:22:00] trouble accessing everyday health and wellness. We normally do a discovery meeting where we come in, meet with the employer, talk to them about what we have.

Travis Bockenstedt: And we had tears at that meeting. We had people who were literally crying because they knew they were about to get a benefit where they could get to a family doctor. They were so impressed with the care that Pinnacle provided that the nonprofit director paid a hundred percent of all the memberships for her employees to go to Pinnacle.

Travis Bockenstedt: She called us and just told her from the bottom of our heart how big of a difference we made on her employees lives. I do not know any company CEO who's called their insurance provider and gone, You've changed my employees lives today, right? It's usually quite the opposite. So for us to take this small nonprofit and help them thrive and to see that joy [00:23:00] on their face, that is why we do what we do.

Travis Bockenstedt: Right to to provide this amazing health care experience. And the cool thing is, is that nonprofit executive director is the new hero for the company. So, you know, these business leaders who implement direct primary care are really doing the right thing for for their team. So just one example of, you know, of businesses we help, but.

Travis Bockenstedt: I love the little guys. I call them the salt of the earth of our business community. And I would say the vast majority of our clients are probably 25 or less employees. And we have over 250 of them.

Soleil: Well, that's just so incredible to hear. As somebody who decided to get into this field because of your personal experience, how did that make you feel? Seeing something like that? 

Travis Bockenstedt: I get excited that anybody I hear, whether it's an individual, a friend, a business leader in the community who signs up for Pinnacle and gives me a [00:24:00] call or sends me a text message and goes, I was really unsure about this model. It seemed too good to be true. And oh my gosh, 90 minutes later, I'm still in the exam room talking with my provider about my life, my kids, you know, my challenges, my goals, and for them to come out of that experience and time and time again, people experience what I experienced at my first direct primary care visit shows the quality of the healthcare model and that we're actually doing what, what we're saying we're going to do.

Travis Bockenstedt: The bar is so low for health care that I tell our team all the time. It doesn't take much to get there. Right. The moment that we do an incorrect billing, which happens, you know, out of almost 2000 patients, once in a while, we'll have a billing hiccup. Right. But we get it fixed right away. The moment you're in our waiting room too long, we're no better [00:25:00] than the other guy down the street.

Travis Bockenstedt: The moment our providers are rushed, the model's done. So we do everything we can to be a really good steward of the healthcare model. And in return, we have tons of happy patients who get that same well rounded primary care experience. So that fills my cup every time I get a call from somebody who joined.

Soleil: Oh, that's so beautiful to hear, because I know you used to work in communications, right? And you were in journalism. And now you're in healthcare. It's a little bit of a switch. So it's amazing that you get to fill up your cup in this way. 

Travis Bockenstedt: it is. But you know, when I think about what I do, I tell people, For the past six years, it's like I've been running a political campaign. Shaking hands, kissing babies, attending events, doing luncheons, you know, the classic campaign thing. And you're taking a very complicated healthcare [00:26:00] system and you're trying to make a new model understandable.

Travis Bockenstedt: So the vast majority of what we do is actually communications. So it's getting the client and educating them. Then once we get the client, we have to do full marketing campaigns and communication campaigns to all the employees. So they understand what benefit that they're getting. So a lot of what I do is communication telling stories Um, so i've been able to apply my journalism and communications background to this job And not to mention the amount of public speaking Um that I do for the health care movement So, you know anyone who's coming out of journalism school our communications our public relations.

Travis Bockenstedt: It's a very flexible Career that you can build

Soleil: that leads me actually perfectly into my next question about this being a new healthcare model. And I'm sure it comes with several challenges. When we talked before you let me know that communications and letting people [00:27:00] know is probably one of the most difficult aspects of your work. Can you tell me a little bit more about this and what other challenges you have been facing since trying to spread the word? 

Soleil: If you will, about this alternative version of healthcare.

Travis Bockenstedt: so I would say that You know when you when you pitch this model for six years straight and you have an hour Conversation with somebody and then they look at you at the end of the meeting and go But I can't use my insurance. It's like, Oh, my gosh, like, were you listening during this entire conversation?

Travis Bockenstedt: Right? But then I have to go, you know, take a step back and go, this is normal. You know, for the past 40, 50 years, this is how people have experienced the healthcare system. I think the other thing too is educating people that Pinnacle is a [00:28:00] healthcare company. A health insurance company is a health insurance company.

Travis Bockenstedt: They're not a healthcare company, they argue they are, but I don't know the last time Blue Cross put on a glove and knocked on your door and said, let's do your exam today, right? So, that's the other confusing thing is people are like, well, I want my healthcare. It's like, well, okay, you want health insurance so you can pay for your healthcare.

Travis Bockenstedt: Right? I think the other thing too, like I talked about before, is just the politics of all this. I've heard so many times that healthcare is on the ballot. You could just take a step back for a moment and go, Why is my health and wellness on the ballot? Should it even be on the ballot? Right? So you have politicians holding healthcare over the voters head and saying this candidate or this candidate will take it away from you.

Travis Bockenstedt: So there's a whole lot of fear mongering that that goes on. And [00:29:00] then I know we'll get into some of the stuff in Washington, D. C. and in the politics of it all. But there is an incentive for big insurance, big healthcare, the traditional system. To do everything they can, Big Pharma, to do everything they can to maintain the status quo.

Travis Bockenstedt: Because they've built such a beast that they need this out, these outrageous prices to, to make it run. 

Travis Bockenstedt: You're paying executives and CEOs of companies multi million dollar packages, right? While their members are going broke.

Travis Bockenstedt: So I think there's, there's a lot of barriers to entry But I found ways to kind of level up with the, with the customer, for instance, um, Amazon has come in and they bought up one of our biggest competitors, um, earlier this year.

Travis Bockenstedt: And I was sitting down with a business owner who was considering renewing their contract with the Amazon based company, [00:30:00] and that's their right. But I said, think about this, 

Travis Bockenstedt: every dollar you give to Amazon, A fraction of that will stay in your community. Every dollar you give to Pinnacle, I would argue 99.

Travis Bockenstedt: 9 percent of those dollars stay right in your backyard. 

Travis Bockenstedt: So we're asking people to fundamentally make a choice of what they want to do. I tell people all the time, you can have the best health insurance in the world. Way to go. Awesome. There's nothing saying you cannot also invest in direct primary care.

Travis Bockenstedt: We're talking 85 bucks a month. One dinner in Denver will run you 85, right? A date night, even at Texas Roadhouse, you get a few steaks and some drinks. So I'm telling people, put your money where your mouth is. If you want to see change and start [00:31:00] investing in local healthcare, direct primary care, and then hopefully we can, we can see the movement, but there, but, but yes.

Travis Bockenstedt: People who know me well know I get frustrated because I've been doing this for a while, but I just got to take a step back and go, this is very new to the consumer. It's not new to me.

Soleil: We're going to take a quick break. But don't go anywhere. If you're liking this podcast, please make sure to like, save and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform.

Soleil: The thing about healthcare is it's not like you can just step aside from it and be like, no, I don't feel like participating in it. Right. It is something that is part of all of our lives and something that you have to think about and consider in some way. And so I even feel frustrated sometimes thinking about [00:32:00] the rat race that we've been put in with insurances. And it's part of the reason why I'm so excited to bring you on today and talk with you about this. Because I really do want to empower people to look for different versions of healthcare. And as somebody who talks about this on my podcast all the time. Community for me is like one of the most important things that people can do for their businesses, for their personal life or their happiness for their health. And. It's just community is so important. 

Soleil: And so. I didn't even know that in. Your personal communities that you could find. Direct primary care service that allows you to give back to your community instead of. Giving back to the Amazons of. the world.

Travis Bockenstedt: Right, absolutely. And we're not the only direct primary care practice, right? There's about 1, 500 of us spread throughout the country. We've reached, I last heard [00:33:00] the movement has now just over 2 million members. So that's pretty cool to see it growing. But 2 million out of what, 300 some odd million citizens in the United States, it's still a drop in the bucket.

Travis Bockenstedt: But, um, but Colorado, um, interestingly enough, is top five in the country for DPC practices. So our state is doing really innovative things to push the movement forward. But we're getting to the point where you can Google direct primary care and might be able to find one in your, in your backyard. So,

Soleil: I love that. And I think supporting small businesses is such an important thing that we can do now and in the future to continue to support our communities. I do want to circle back on the work that you're doing in Washington, DC. Do you think that the work that you're doing in Washington DC is helping to grow this movement? 

Soleil: And if it's not, what are the things that you're trying to work on in Washington, DC. right now in order to grow [00:34:00] it?

Travis Bockenstedt: Uh, so, um, the direct primary care movement has a few sort of, uh, trade groups. And lobbying groups that are working on our behalf. Um, I know they're doing really hard work and trying as hard as they can, but again, you know, we're kind of pushing this huge boulder up a hill only to get like run over by it.

Travis Bockenstedt: Sometimes again, right? You think you're making a lot of games, so I tell the Washington D. C. with the Colorado Springs Chamber and E. D. C. And they do a DC flying every year. We had 80 delegates, uh, community representatives from El Paso County and, um, we had the opportunity obviously to meet all of our representatives, senators in DC, and to press them on some healthcare questions.

Travis Bockenstedt: I would say, unfortunately, most of them probably danced around it. I don't think we got any direct answers like we wanted to get. We were hoping we'd get some updates from [00:35:00] Senator Hickenlooper. Uh, then Governor Hickenlooper in 2017, who did sign DPC friendly legislation in the state of Colorado, basically removing us from the Division of Insurance.

Travis Bockenstedt: The Division of Insurance wanted to regulate our primary care practices like an insurance product. But like I told you before, we are a healthcare company, we're not a health insurance company. So, he put that legislation in place, which was awesome. I followed up with him on three bills. And other, and other politicians too.

Travis Bockenstedt: So this is not against Senator Hickenlooper, but I had asked about three bills that we want to see, um, push through that could help direct primary care. One is for veterans access. So, um, we know that the VA system is very overwhelmed. We know the TRICARE system, all sort of our military benefits, our armed forces, while they do get free healthcare in a way, it's still very hard to get in and not the most quality experience.[00:36:00] 

Travis Bockenstedt: So we want veterans to be able to have the choice to go to a direct primary care practice if they would like to seek care and coming up with some type of program that would help um, veterans invest in that. I'm pretty, um, not anti, I am a purist when it comes to free market healthcare, so I'm not asking for VA dollars at all.

Travis Bockenstedt: Um, I'm just saying, let them choose. The other one would be Medicaid recipients. Uh, Colorado is one of two states in the country where we cannot see Medicaid recipients. So we would have issues with our license, they could get in trouble. So again, I'm not asking for Medicaid dollars. But so many Medicaid patients cannot get any care.

Travis Bockenstedt: So if they want to take their hard earned money and invest it in a direct primary care practice, they should be able to do so because there's a huge community that we can serve. Then lastly would be HSA dollars. So funny enough, you can use your HSA card for [00:37:00] so many different things, but you cannot pay for your direct primary care membership.

Travis Bockenstedt: With your HSA card. Now you can use our HSA card in our clinic and pay for stitches and labs and medications, but you cannot put your membership on it. So there's just little frustrating things that we would like to see moved ahead. Unfortunately, I've seen these three bills kind of just circulate. And not really go anywhere.

Travis Bockenstedt: Um, but, but I'm hopeful that we can do some stuff with it. And I'm hopeful that the movement can continue to, um, work with business leaders, work with politicians to, to get this movement because I do think it's sustainable. And at the end of the day, We can save taxpayers money. So instead of gobbling up taxpayer money, which the system does We are actually good stewards of it.

Travis Bockenstedt: So that would be my argument.

Soleil: And to clarify when you're going to these people in positions of power, such as [00:38:00] governor Hickenlooper. Are they ignoring you? Or what are they saying? saying?

Soleil: to you.

Travis Bockenstedt: No, not at all I just think that they have a full docket of stuff that they are working on and They're still working on health care, it's just, it's just this steaming engine of garbage barreling down a train track called the ACA, that everybody's like, it's about to run off the rails, but what if we do this, what if we patch it here, what if we make the train driver happier, you know, like, a horrible analogy, but it's this beast, right?

Travis Bockenstedt: So. They're doing stuff. I just argue, why keep trying to fix something that's broken? Let's shift our attention to the direct primary care movement, which is doing the right thing. We figured it out. We figured it out for primary care. I'm not saying do away with our big hospital systems and burn down the insurance industry.[00:39:00] 

Travis Bockenstedt: I'm just saying let's use it properly. Of what it's intended to be used for so, you know, I just want Politicians and people in power to start recognizing there is a fix it's working. Let's support the folks who are trying to fix it

Soleil: can you, is there anything that we can do as individuals to move this forward a little bit? Because. Often, you know, as a voter and as a member of community. I often kind of feel. Disenfranchised with stuff like this. I feel like I can't really do anything to play my part. It just feels like I'm always stuck in this situation. Of needing to spend a huge amount of money to either the insurance companies or the hospitals. How would you encourage people to, and is there a way.

Soleil: For people to feel like they're. Involved. 

Travis Bockenstedt: I would say start with by voting with your dollar And that can go everything from [00:40:00] healthcare to making the choice today to get into my car and buy something from the local business owner and sitting on my couch and getting something delivered same day prime, right? So, you know, I hear people all the time complain about Amazon, yet they're shopping on it and getting all their stuff for Christmas.

Travis Bockenstedt: So we have to break some of our own economy addictions and go, Hey, I'm going to start voting with, with my dollar. Cause, cause that does mean something. right. Every dollar you take away from big healthcare, um, is a dollar invested in somebody who's doing right and want to create that change. I think on the government side of things as a whole, um, we need to ask the basic question of what?

Travis Bockenstedt: What is the proper role of government? When we think about in terms of health care, you know, I don't, I struggle sometimes with Not providing people anything, you know, I think to Have [00:41:00] a strong country We need healthy, productive people, from workers, to our military, to you name it, right? Like, countries who do not have good healthcare systems, their people are sick and malnourished and not getting the care they need.

Travis Bockenstedt: So to have a strong country, we need to have a come to Jesus with ourselves and go, Are the basic needs of our people being met? But at the same time, are we creating a generation that's relying on government healthcare, like Medicare, Medicaid, to be the provider? Because once again, your healthcare is on the line.

Travis Bockenstedt: We see Medicare, Medicaid funding being, um, debated all the time, right? So, in an ideal world, Government would have no role whatsoever in our healthcare system. To make that happen. We need to take lab work and drop it from 6, 000 back to 50. Like I was [00:42:00] talking about earlier, you know, if we had care priced where it should be, you wouldn't need as much insurance, you wouldn't need as much saved away for those co pays and deductibles.

Travis Bockenstedt: So, you know, every time you hear someone that just says the government can fix healthcare, I would take a step back and go. They mess everything up. Do you want them controlling the most personal part of your life? So vote with your dollar and ask the tough question. Is it the proper role of government to be providing?

Travis Bockenstedt: um health care to me, so

Soleil: it's so interesting and such a good point that he don't do anything right. Anyway. So why would I want them involved in like one of the most personal things in my life? Yeah. And, and you talking about this actually made me think, and this is something that I had seen previously. And I will attach. The work done on this in the podcast notes for other people to look at. But I had seen previously that the United States actually has the [00:43:00] highest maternal mortality rate than any first world country in the entire world. 

Soleil: And. Even though we have all these. Amazing services. Like something that I've read about, this is something that I'm very interested in is why does it cost so much money? And yet we're not doing a good job at protecting our kids from mental health crises from. Things that are in our food. Why are so many women dying when they give birth? 

Soleil: Why do we have so many elderly people who are not being taken care of correctly? And we're supposedly the best country in the world. At this, and we're spending so much money on our healthcare. So why is this happening? Even though we're spending so much money aren't we supposed to be? Doing better at this. 

Soleil: At what point can the government actually changed something like that? You know,

Travis Bockenstedt: So, um, you know, I think There's so many things that I think about when it comes to changing the system. [00:44:00] And I think really what it comes down to at the end of the day. Is a consumer who is not empowered at all to make decisions, which means that they're not being provided with the information they need to be provided with.

Travis Bockenstedt: They are scared to seek care because they do not know what the out of pocket could be, and therefore, we have created a sick care system. And not a proactive care system. So when you talk about we spend the most money in the world on health care But do not have any better health care outcomes this is the come to jesus the system needs to have you know.

Travis Bockenstedt: we build these palaces of wellness with Atriums that are as as big as a health care uh center should be right so we've built this palace of health care and we've created this [00:45:00] image that Our system costs so much, therefore it's, it's better quality.

Travis Bockenstedt: There's no correlation between the two. I have people who are like, ugh, is your lab work still good if it costs that much? Yes. We use the same lab, literally the same lab. The blood is going in the same tubes and delivered to the same lab, but the consumer isn't putting two and two together. So it's a shame.

Travis Bockenstedt: We invest all this money, waste all this money, and our healthcare outcomes are still not as good as they, they could be. I'm not up to speed on the infant mortality rate, um, but I have heard things about it, and, and I know there are other examples just like that, that, that we are not, you know, doing justice.

Travis Bockenstedt: You had mentioned the elderly. Um, you know, people are losing their homes over being put in a care center and having their health care taken care of. So, so, yeah, it is really disappointing. We spent all this money and we're not getting better health outcomes.

Soleil: Is [00:46:00] it possible? Is there a world where we can utilize a better healthcare system. Do you think it's possible? 

Travis Bockenstedt: I do. I think that it could take an entire generation to get where we want to go. If we cut the fat out of the healthcare system, people that are adding no value, there will be thousands and thousands of jobs lost. Um, I think you go back to Bernie Sanders when he was proposing universal healthcare and some other things.

Travis Bockenstedt: Uh, this is quite a few years back, someone had asked him about job loss. And he admitted there would be, right? So that's a tough thing, too, that knowing there will be an administrative, um, fraction of the health care industry that will not have jobs anymore. So that's that's 1 thing. Um, I think we have to stop [00:47:00] subsidizing bad health care businesses.

Travis Bockenstedt: So we're talking about using taxpayer money. To lower insulin costs. I think they have a formulary of like the top most expensive drugs that are now being offered to people who need them for basically nothing, which is great because these are life saving drugs that some people need. But are we just enabling the system by saying actually to lower prices, we're going to take taxpayer money to subsidize instead of saying no pharmaceutical company, you cannot do that.

Travis Bockenstedt: Right. We, we simply will not, will not pay you for that. Or as companies say, we simply won't cover that on our health plan. So, and again, can we get more businesses to vote with their dollar? Can we get them to not sign up with these big insurance plans and to get more creative with their employee benefits?

Travis Bockenstedt: Um, unfortunately, I think [00:48:00] we will have one party pushing towards a universal health care system. And then you're going to have the other party pushing to dismantle the ACA overnight. Both would be disasters. You just, unfortunately, you can't cut, blow up the ACA tomorrow. Because there are so many things that would be undone.

Travis Bockenstedt: There would be so much mass chaos. Again, I keep saying this because the consumer's not empowered. So the consumer would go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I have no idea what to do. So, um, It'll happen in our lifetime. I just don't know what the outcome is going to be.

Soleil: I am really looking forward to that day. I'm also looking forward to how. Technology. And the technology that we're creating. And this could lead into a completely different conversation. But how the technology that we're using nowadays could possibly improve these systems. Also, I've been seeing [00:49:00] some really cool stuff with AI. Helping healthcare companies. And so overall, I think that there's a world out there where we can continue to improve the health outcomes of people. While also helping their wallets at the end of the day. 

Soleil: And I hope that we can continue to empower each other as I'm hoping to do with this podcast. And as one of the largest listeners of this podcast is CEOs and people who run their own businesses, small and large. What advice would you give to them to start looking for? Alternatives are looking towards direct primary care. Cause you brought it up so many times. Being able to have employers straight utilizing this instead of traditional insurance all the time, what would be their steps to trying to figure out something. Alternative further employees.

Travis Bockenstedt: I would say two things. One, 

Travis Bockenstedt: you need to sit down with your healthcare benefits broker. We're selling you benefits. You need to have an honest conversation with them [00:50:00] and demand full transparency. And they owe that to you as a company. Then you need to bring up this new model called direct primary care and to ask your broker if they know anything about it.

Travis Bockenstedt: If they do not know anything about it, I, if you're a business owner that's listening to this podcast, maybe, maybe research direct primary care a little bit, you need to tell your broker, this is a health care strategy that we want to do. The other thing as a business owner is to say, a lot of businesses say we want to treat our employees like family.

Travis Bockenstedt: Um, if you want to treat your employees like family, and you want to take care of them, the whole family, Why not make primary care and family medicine the foundation of your health care plan? To say, hey, insurance company, we're going to invest in Pinnacle on our own. We're going to keep you, but just know this is something we're going to do.

Travis Bockenstedt: We've made a decision. And [00:51:00] even companies who have already put their plan in place for this year and it's good to go. I would encourage you to add direct primary care as a voluntary benefit. Do it as a pilot. Let us show you what we can do. Let's do some employee surveys. Hear about the care we can provide.

Travis Bockenstedt: Because I believe in freedom in the free market. If you're not happy with Pinnacle, cancel us. 30 day notice and we're done, right? But I've never had anybody after 30 days go, Travis, I did not like this experience. So it's up to you, the business owner, right? It's up to you to start asking the tough question and saying, you know, I'm not just going to take what you're going to give me every year.

Travis Bockenstedt: You need to give me more. You need to explain. You need to tell me why this is going up 12 percent and have them justify it. And if your broker can't do that, you have the power to shop for a new one.

Soleil: Wonderful. And what is one last piece of advice? Reflecting on your experience for listeners. What piece of advice would you leave them with after our conversation today? 

Travis Bockenstedt: [00:52:00] I would say that I want people to take ownership of their health and wellness. I'm not asking you to run a 5k or a marathon tomorrow. I'm not asking you to hit the gym every day. I'm just asking you to take a step back and go, what do I need to do one every year to stay happy and healthy? What do I need to do to make sure I have a good relationship with a primary care physician who knows me, who can I, who I can access?

Travis Bockenstedt: So when something big does happen. Or you have a concern that's worrying you. You're not sitting in that urgent care for three to four hours just for them to look at you and bill you and tell you there's nothing they can do. Right? The other thing too is really trying to dig a little bit deeper into what free market healthcare is.

Travis Bockenstedt: This goes back to what I've said quite a few times is taking an active role in your health and wellness. That's where it can start. Us as the consumer, as the patient. [00:53:00] So that would be my, my advice. It's just to start looking around, start researching, do what I did sitting in an ER six years ago, right?

Travis Bockenstedt: Wondering, why am I here? You know, have that moment with yourself. So, that would be sort of my, my takeaway for listeners out of this whole podcast. Is just to take an active role, invest in solutions that are working.

Soleil: Well, thank you so much, Travis. I feel like I could talk to you about this for hours and hours. And I appreciate all the work that you're doing to help continue to empower consumers.

Soleil: And thank you for talking with me today. I really appreciate it. 

Travis Bockenstedt: Thank you, Soleil. I appreciate it. Thank you.